Curse

necronninenine · Jun 18, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

The only thing that should be nerfed is this thread. These guys have figured out a way to get more people doing more things...which is good for all of us and them. Whether its ursan or perma sf or some form of crazed ele the game has more options and I enjoy all i have tried and look forward to the ones i havent. What we really need is more places to farm and more challenges..but i guess we have to wait a while for that.

AshenX · Jun 18, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

The primary argument I have seen for a nerf to SF is the fact that it unbalances PVE. I disagree. Here are some of my reasons for disagreement.

The perma SF build allows one to farm ectos very efficiently. These ectos are then spent on obsidian armor with stats no better than 1.5k sets, chaos gloves with no better stats, and weapons with no better stats than collector gear. If you honestly believe that the ability to afford an undedicated white rabbit minipet unbalances the game you might want to reconsider your opinion.

Each and every perma SF sin out there is doing his farm in an instanced environment. His virtual invulnerability (at least if properly run in the UW) has no effect whatsoever on a balanced group that enters the UW.

As regards to the lack of balance inherent to the build itself as suggested by many in this thread I must assume that those individuals are making reference to a degree of balance between the perma SF build and the builds that they use themselves because in general a knowlegeable and/or skilled player's build will almost always be much better than that of the monsters he is facing. In many cases these monsters do not even have full skill bars. I am assuming here that the players arguing against perma SF for balance purposes are not choosing to use "bad" builds to match the monsters they face in PVE. Unless they do so they are not in fact contributing to a state of balance between themselves and the monsters. And, since they are not in the same instance as the perma SF famer, no state of balance needs to exist between that build and theirs.

At least one individual asked for a single good reason for SF to remain without nerf. I shall give it. It is enjoyed by some people in a game that uses instancing in such a way as to allow those who dont find it enjoyable to avoid interacting with it. Its that simple. People who paid money to be able to enjoy themselves are having fun. People who dont like the build are not in any way forced to use it or play with those who do. The only counter to this argument for keeping SF as it is would be that its very existence reduces your enjoyment of the game. If that is your argument then you should ask yourself, "why is my enjoyment of my GW experience dependant on the decision of someone whom I shall never meet, talk to, play with, or even see to use a skill that I need not ever look at, use, or party with someone using it."

I do not consider perma SF to be anything but a simplistic farming build and I chuckle every time I am in TOA and see, "PRO," perma SF lfg.

Remember, always, to have fun and remember you dont have to take the easy way out. My guild/alliance has started what we call naked mission day. We form up and complete missions in prophecies without wearing armor of any sort. Shields, weapons, and offhands are all that is allowed. Makes even the easiest mission kind of exciting again...

Yawgmoth · Jun 18, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

Each and every perma SF sin out there is doing his farm in an instanced environment. His virtual invulnerability (at least if properly run in the UW) has no effect whatsoever on a balanced group that enters the UW.

Wrong. Perma SF are also used in 'balanced' 8 man teams that do UW, they make it possible for the complete HM run to be finished under 30 minutes (records are ~20).

And your whole argument about perma SF not imbalancing PvE is very poor - enjoyability of something stupidly overpowered is not an argument, it doesn't matter if you have fun and that you do it in a separate instance.

And if it mattered...

... I demand a nonelite 1-button AoE instagib skill to make my perma SF farms even faster, I promise I will only use it in instances without other people, so it certainly won't affect the PvE balance. And I will have great fun, and I paid to have fun!!!

great argument, really.

AshenX · Jun 19, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Actually my argument stands. The fact of the matter is that none of those people in his group in the instance in which they play is there against their will. The perma sin's presence in that group has no impact on a true balanced group in another instance. I am sorry if you misunderstood my statement but in fact my point was correct. People in different instances have no effect on each other's play.

My point about the fact that some people enjoy running a perma SF sin had nothing to do with whether or not it was balanced. I was very clear in stating that it was an answer to a request earlier in the thread for a single reason not to nerf SF. Again I am sorry that you were unable to comprehend the point.

You in no way responded to my arguments pointing out (irrefutable in my opinion) the fallacy of the concept of balance in PVE. Instead you have taken points out of context. This is not meant to be judgemental I am merely attempting to understand your point or at least the frame of mind that lead you to your mistaken conclusions about my points.

As regards to your last comment...I am assuming that you intended your demand to be taken for sarcasm. I am sorry if that is incorrect. In response I must point out that the perma SF sin build was developed by players (and copied by others) who looked at existing skills and applied their ingenuity, intellect, time, and effort to produce a more efficient farming build for their character. They are working within the context of the game they paid for. You are insisting that things be handed to you, that the existing game be changed to revolve around you. There is a very big difference. I very much hope that you are able to see it.

Scf Blacknight · Jun 19, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I want to reply to the anti-Ursan posts earlier in the thread.

Keep in mind that an Ursan is worthless without a monk. Most groups I ever see are still 8-Man teams. Ursans still need cons or they are less effective.

Replace the word Ursan With PermaSin in the above statement. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

In terms of unbalanced, Ursan doesn't even touch the PermaSin.

Tyla · Jun 19, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

^
Ursans don't need cons, cons just tenfold their power as with any other build.

Not to mention the only place worthy of Perma SF is in farming and farming only. It was already possible from Nightfall.

Nude Nira · Jun 19, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Wow, this thread isn't locked yet? Crazy.

But...TBH who cares? ectos went down a couple hundred gold, oh noes! Ectos could drop to 100g and I still wouldn't care, although if they did, I'd go out and buy fow and chaos gloves for all my chars...and so would everyon else.

I really don't care if I see more wammo's running around in FoW, if they can finally get it, because ectos are more accessible for them, good for them.

Narcissia · Jun 19, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

anet should just put a cap on ecto prices at trader, like 4k or something. then ppl with all their money into ecto wouldnt need to complain. afterall, they made it so we can only hold/trade so much gold, making it so we had to use ecto. their fault

Maria The Princess · Jun 19, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

hey look at the bright side (except easy ecto source)

now sins are actually WANTED in a party. im happy now i can use my Sin for other then PvP or hero/henching.

Thizzle · Jun 19, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

hey look at the bright side (except easy ecto source)

now sins are actually WANTED in a party. im happy now i can use my Sin for other then PvP or hero/henching.

There wanted by single players to use to farm not entire parties.

Hailey Anne · Jun 19, 2008, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thizzle

There wanted by single players to use to farm not entire parties.

Thats not true. They are wanted by parties for UW clear.

gelei · Jun 19, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Remove Dying Nightmares' skill (Rend Enchantments) and add this (concept) monster skill instead: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...s_unfair%21%22

Or sth similar

Targren · Jun 19, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by gelei

Remove Dying Nightmares' skill (Rend Enchantments) and add this (concept) monster skill instead: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...s_unfair%21%22

Or sth similar

This one is better.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Targren/QQ

RotteN · Jun 19, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

oh, we're doing stupid skill suggestions !

Please let me join : make dying nightmares melee and give them : http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Suicide_Health

On a not so stupid note : stop complaining already. This SF whining is getting old. Devs have already stated they'll look into it. What more do you want to achieve with endless whining ?

Cebe · Jun 19, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

On a not so stupid note : stop complaining already. This SF whining is getting old. Devs have already stated they'll look into it. What more do you want to achieve with endless whining ?

I think this is a good point to mark an end to this thread.

Everyone's said their piece, and I don't think we can squeeze any more out of this topic.

/Locked.